Well, that certainly seems reasonable considering it seems to be just that -- a fairytale (sic).
Only to those that have not researched the evidence for The Resurrection that changed world history forever.
Sea Breeze
JoinedPosts by Sea Breeze
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35
the sounding of the trumpet
by enoughisenough ini will risk showing my ignorance but i had some questioning thoughts in my head lately...maybe those more scholarly than me have insight.
jw teach that the anointed who now die go immediately to heaven.
when lazarus had died martha said she knew he would rise on the last day.
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Sea Breeze
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35
the sounding of the trumpet
by enoughisenough ini will risk showing my ignorance but i had some questioning thoughts in my head lately...maybe those more scholarly than me have insight.
jw teach that the anointed who now die go immediately to heaven.
when lazarus had died martha said she knew he would rise on the last day.
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Sea Breeze
Boogerman,
You are correct that you have wandered off the WT plantation a bit. Maybe I should have credited you for that. But why not take the time to first discover sound Christian doctrine? The bible is clear that there is such a thing:
1Ti_1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Tit_1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit_2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
My take: No one is resurrected to heaven, and everyone is resurrected to perfect life on earth - in 2 stages:
Scripture says that our "citizenship is in heaven", that "we will always be with the Lord", The souls of slain believers are seen in heaven in Rev. 6
1st: the righteous, those who died believing in Christ, with living Christians changed in "the twinkling of an eye."
But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and arose again, so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall be forever with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thess. 4
Christian believers yet alive, and those that have died (Christian era souls in heaven) are resurrected / changed at the same event - the rapture.
2nd: The unrighteous, unbelievers/unknowing of Christ, at the end of Christ's millennium.
This is in line with sound doctrine.
Since a) the ransom immediately restores what was lost, i.e. Adamic perfection, every human being will have perfect human bodies - they will not have to "grow" to physical perfection. (w75 5/1 p. 278 par. 28) and
Agreed. You are describing the doctrine of Glorification where the sin nature is completely eradicated and our bodies are made fit for life in heaven AND earth.
b) a ransom can only restore what was actually lost: 144,000 immortal Melchizedek king/priests appearing in heaven from earth perverts the truth of what Adam actually forfeited. (he never lost a heavenly hope for any of his descendants!)
Jesus is rightfully called the First and the Last and “the firstborn from the dead,” because he was the first & last human to be resurrected to heaven. (Revelation 1:17; Acts 26:23; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5)This cannot be accurate because Jesus comes and the end of the tribulation all the way to earth (as opposed to in the air/clouds at the rapture) with his saints. This event is spoken of in both the OT and the NT.
ZECHARIAH 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst of it toward the east, and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you.
1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 (Paul)
13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
JUDE 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with tens of thousands [millions] of his saints.
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have
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the sounding of the trumpet
by enoughisenough ini will risk showing my ignorance but i had some questioning thoughts in my head lately...maybe those more scholarly than me have insight.
jw teach that the anointed who now die go immediately to heaven.
when lazarus had died martha said she knew he would rise on the last day.
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Sea Breeze
neat blue dog,
Keep in mind that the illiterate ramblings and definitions of the WT are not shared by biblical scholars and are cause for incredible "face in palm" cringing when even reading their ideas.
Let's unpack it:1. Jesus went bodily to heaven in the same body he was crucified with.
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."
Jesus is in heaven right now in his same crucified body (albeit a "glorified body" fit for heaven AND earth) and will come again in that same body:
“Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
This is a most critical Christian topic because if Christ’s body was not resurrected, we have no hope that ours will be (1 Corinthians 15:13, 16). In fact, apart from Christ’s bodily resurrection, we have no Savior, no salvation, and no hope of eternal life. As the apostle Paul said, our faith would be “useless” and the life-giving power of the gospel would be altogether eliminated.
This is why the WT denies the bodily resurrection of Christ. It is inherently connected to our salvation, which the WT seeks to steal from mankind in a number of heretical ways.
2. Believers will always be with Jesus and like Jesus with a "glorified body" just like the one that Jesus has now....
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." - 1 John 3:2-3
The three great doctrines of Christianity were utterly ignored or badly scrambled by Russell because he had absolutely no training. He was just a men's clothing salesman who believed that he himself was personally prophesied in scripture. He was a sociopathic madman. We must never forget this.
The three great doctrines of Christianity are Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification. The definitions of these biblical hopes are described in detail all over the internet in numerous Christian sites from different denominations. These three doctrines don't change even though Christians may disagree on non-essential doctrines.
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My Prediction Regarding New Space Telescope That Will See Back to 100 Million Years From the Big Bang
by Sea Breeze ina new space telescope launched a few days age that will supposedly be able to see to within 100 million years of the big bang.
wow... only 100 million years from the big bang.
that is pretty early given the 12 billion year age of the universe assigned by scholars who adhere to naturalism.
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Sea Breeze
The scientific process, by definition, is going to yield incorrect results most of the time.
@MeanMrMustard
Theories are tested by making predictions and then testing to see if those predictions come true.... just as I have done here on this thread. How many failures need to be experienced before a paradigm like the Big Bang is discarded?
This is a well-known process in how science progresses. I believe we are reaching critical mass in a number of scientific disciplines, at least for some scientists. This is a very exciting time in science.
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Sea Breeze
So the WT presents the GB as:
1. the rightful rulers of the earth
2. God's mouthpiece
3. the nanny of all of God's "belongings"
Then they get upset when JW's treat them like rock stars and tell them to knock it off? What gives? The reactions are appropriate if what they claim about themselves is true.
The reality is that it is embarrassing to be idolized like that. It is totally anti-Christian But, they caused it, not the R&F. -
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the sounding of the trumpet
by enoughisenough ini will risk showing my ignorance but i had some questioning thoughts in my head lately...maybe those more scholarly than me have insight.
jw teach that the anointed who now die go immediately to heaven.
when lazarus had died martha said she knew he would rise on the last day.
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Sea Breeze
Boogerman,
With all due respect, that is not your take. You got that from Watchtower.
This is the long-time doctrine of the resurrections:
https://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html
Christians are united on this, with widespread agreement. The WT has a 100% failure rate with end-time prophecies. Why would you believe anything they print. Virtually any biblical scholar would disagree with what you posted.
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35
the sounding of the trumpet
by enoughisenough ini will risk showing my ignorance but i had some questioning thoughts in my head lately...maybe those more scholarly than me have insight.
jw teach that the anointed who now die go immediately to heaven.
when lazarus had died martha said she knew he would rise on the last day.
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Sea Breeze
Hi enoughisenough,
You are not ignorant. Understand that Russel had no biblical training whatsoever when he started teaching the bible though the Watchtower. Subsequent leaders and adherents never went to a bible school either. Christians don't have the confusion that we WT educated have.
Man is constituted by three parts. All three are spoken of as YOU in the bible. (soul, body & spirit) Bible writers assume that the reader understands this. When the three parts are joined together, you are alive. When the three parts are separated, you are dead.Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour. 17And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also. 18And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. - Gen. 35: 16-18
So, building on this understanding... after a person has died, a resurrection occurs when the soul, body and spirit are joined back together again. Just because a believer goes to heaven (his soul), doesn't mean that a resurrection has occurred. Dead souls (not resurrected spirits) are described in heaven in Rev. 6: 9.
This chart by J. Vernon McGee describes in detail the First and the Second Resurrection. It must be read from left to right.... as if you are standing at a parade and the procession is marching past you. This gives the time sequence.
The key take away is that the "First Resurrection" is in three parts. This is the one that we want. The second resurrection is "unto damnation". That is the one that we don't want.
Everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected at some point, some to a resurrection of life, others to a resurrection of damnation. The chart below may be easier. It can be read from left to right:First Resurrection (also called the resurrection of the righteous):
1. Jesus as first fruits
2. Believers at the Rapture
3. Tribulation Martyrs along with the OT saints
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A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.
by Fisherman inobviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.
and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.
in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.
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Sea Breeze
DJW,
A bible teacher friend of mine once debated Laurance Krauss. You can listen to the debate here.
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The real story on why The Watchtower society lost a Kingdom hall in Bonham ,Texas.!
by koolaid-man inwhat happened in bonham, texas?
: the body of elders and the majority of the congregation decided to leave the watch tower organization.
and with that, they took the kingdom hall.
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Sea Breeze
I was scheduled to go to the Quick Build in Bonham but had to work that weekend. One of our elders gave me the low down. Apparently, one of the apostates who had taken over the previous hall was racing his car up and down the street during the quick-build on the road it was on. A little while later all the brothers saw a tow truck pulling the same car down the road after it had apparently crashed.
Supposedly everyone was laughing at how Jehovah took care of the problem. I was told this by an elder. Don't know if anyone else can confirm this or not. -
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My Prediction Regarding New Space Telescope That Will See Back to 100 Million Years From the Big Bang
by Sea Breeze ina new space telescope launched a few days age that will supposedly be able to see to within 100 million years of the big bang.
wow... only 100 million years from the big bang.
that is pretty early given the 12 billion year age of the universe assigned by scholars who adhere to naturalism.
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Sea Breeze
Thanks to the WEBB telescope...we know now that there galaxies are "exploding out of the woodwork" where they are not supposed to be; and that we suspect that "Galaxy formation models may now need a revision".... we should probably look at how we know that stars form on their own in the first place. If secular scientists are wrong about the early universe, could they be wrong about star formation itself?
The storyline goes that gas clouds (3rd generation mind you!) condense due to gravity. But, the weak force of gravity is easily overpowered by the cloud's pressure, as well as its angular momentum. Further, the cloud would have to be more massive than an average star yet orders of magnitude smaller than any known nebulae.
The example below from Astronomy Cast, hosted by Fraser Cain, the founder of Universe Today, sums up stellar evolution problem:
The process by which an interstellar cloud is concentrated until it is held together gravitationally to become a protostar is not known. In quantitative work, it has simply been assumed that the number of atoms per cm3 has somehow increased about a thousand-fold over that in a dense nebula. The two principal factors inhibiting the formation of a protostar are that the gas has a tendency to disperse before the density becomes high enough for self-gravitation to be effective, and that any initial angular momentum would cause excessively rapid rotation as the material contracts. Some mechanism must therefore be provided for gathering the material into a sufficiently small volume that self-gravitation may become effective, and the angular momentum must in some way be removed." Eva Novotny, Introduction to Stellar Atmospheres and Interiors, Oxford University Press.
And here's the admission from Neil deGrasse Tyson in his Death by Black Hole: And Other Cosmic Quandaries, p. 187:
Not all gas clouds in the Milky Way [or any galaxy] can form stars at all times. More often than not, the cloud is confused about what to do next. Actually, [we] astrophysicists are the confused ones here. We know the cloud wants to collapse under its own weight to make one or more stars. But rotation as well as turbulent motion within the cloud work against that fate. So, too, does the ordinary gas pressure you learned about in high-school chemistry class. Galactic magnetic fields also fight collapse: they penetrate the cloud and latch onto any free-roaming charged particles contained therein, restricting the ways in which the cloud will respond to its self-gravity. The scary part is that if none of us knew in advance that stars exist, front line research would offer plenty of convincing reasons for why stars could never form.
I didn't know that science was "scary". God is scary, until you make friends with him through the blood of the covenant.... then you're just part of the family with literally nothing to be afraid of.
Here's a more compelling theory on star formation that better fits the facts:
“You alone are the Lord. You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them. You give life to all of them and the heavenly host bows down before You,” (Nehemiah 9:6).
“Thus says the Lord, ‘Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest? For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being,’ declares the Lord. ‘But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word'” (Isaiah 66:1-2).
